In 2007, economist Jens Ludwig moved to the South Side of Chicago to research two big questions: Why does gun violence happen? And is there anything we can do about it? Almost two decades later, the answers aren’t what he expected. Unforgiving Places is Ludwig’s revelatory portrait of gun violence in America’s most famously maligned city.

Ludwig says his research disproves the popular narrative that shootings are the calculated acts of malicious or desperate people; he says it shows most shootings actually grow out of a more fleeting source: interpersonal conflict, especially arguments. By examining why some arguments turn tragic while others don't, Ludwig says gun violence is more circumstantial—and more solvable—than our traditional approaches lead us to believe.

Drawing on decades of research and Ludwig’s immersive fieldwork in Chicago, including “countless hours spent in schools, parks, playgrounds, housing developments, courtrooms, jails, police stations, police cars, and lots and lots of McDonald'ses,” Ludwig joins us with San Francisco Police Chief Bill Scott to discuss his work in behavioral economics. As Ludwig says, progress on gun violence doesn’t require America to solve every other social problem first; it only requires that we find ways to intervene in the places and the 10-minute windows where human behaviors predictably go haywire.